Date: 2021-03-17 06:59 am (UTC)
skybreak: Reynard (Default)
From: [personal profile] skybreak
Firstly we'll need to see what more information comes out of this meeting.
Gil and (I'm guessing) Martellus command significant forces - they could go. However Marty and Agatha really should break the chemical thrall that binds them.
Most of the rest - Krosp, Tarvek, Rakethorn, etc - could follow Agatha.

I'm curious to hear if Albia has interrogated the copy of the Lucrezia that was removed from Agatha and what she's learned.

Date: 2021-03-17 08:31 am (UTC)
murgatroyd_666: (von_Zinzer_Grump)
From: [personal profile] murgatroyd_666
The people of Agatha's world do some things -- almost anything involving Mad Science, really -- better than our people do. But communications in Europa really and truly suck, and nobody seems able or inclined to do much to remedy that.

Date: 2021-03-17 10:45 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
They have tech. They don't have the right infrastructure.

Date: 2021-03-18 12:42 am (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
The "tech" (raw capabilities) is far higher than is necessary. Not even on Paris/Mechanicsburg level.
Navy vessels can communicate with the base, private airships call the port about unusual circumstances.

But telegraph and phone grids ran jolly well on copper, jumping even large bodies of water with underwater cables. Wireless communications only make it more convenient and allow the ships underway to talk. And relays cannot be a problem because agile clanks and local networks need much better ones.

Thus, common capabilities are more than sufficient for general-purpose networks with bandwidth from telegraph to fax spanning the whole place. They just aren't used this way, most likely for lack of demand. No faction is interested in more than internal communication lines.

So the continent is "6 kilometers away at high tide" from England, but the entire path is a thousand kilometers, and news propagate all the way at best with airships.
This could be much worse. At least from Paris to England it was presumably relayed via diplomatic couriers, thanks to Colette. Rather than from port tavern to port tavern.

Date: 2021-03-18 05:49 am (UTC)
murgatroyd_666: (von_Zinzer_Hmm)
From: [personal profile] murgatroyd_666
With the Empire fallen ...

But their tech level twenty-five years before this point in the narrative was pretty darned high. Yet they use heliographs for airship and ground communications! OTOH, they do know about "etheric vibrations," Agatha can literally build a ray gun in her sleep ... They put artificial intelligence into castle building stones and blackberry bushes, fer cryin' out loud! (Granted, Himalayan blackberry bushes are already malevolent and scheming in their original feral form.)

If I had to rationalize it, I'd say it's because Sparks don't share information. In fact, they seem to take it as a point of honor that any solution that they devise to a problem is original and incompatible with anyone else's solution. Even of a group of Sparks somehow came up with radio, I don't think they could ever agree to use the same frequency.
Edited Date: 2021-03-18 05:50 am (UTC)

Date: 2021-03-18 03:13 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
recognition codes.
That's multi-factor authentication. It's not a message, it's a security feature.
What we can infer is: other communication systems available to civilian vessels are very useful in an emergency, but users don't think of them as "reasonably secure".
They are likely to be correct, what's with all those students in Paris ripping into closed protocols for fun and all the loons salivating in general direction of the Doom Bell.
Considering how even in our days submarine communication cables are messed with… we may simply assume any large communication network in Sparky Europa to be under attack by multiple parties at any given time, unless:
A. well guarded against physical access or
B. specialized enough to be of little use to the outsiders.
Guarding a subcontinent scale grid against opponents with invisibility and digging vehicles is a very expensive fool's errand. Of very specialized networks, we have seen an example: Corbettites usually live on a schedule, so would transmit mainly things of immediate interest to them, i.e. updates on problems with their railways… and no SIGINT at all is needed if their broadcast are easier to observe via legitimate recipients at any local Corbettite terminal.

Date: 2021-03-18 12:08 am (UTC)
madfilkentist: My cat Florestan (gray shorthair) (Default)
From: [personal profile] madfilkentist
Master Payne's Circus used horses for transportation. Not much of the fancy tech that Sparks create reaches mass markets or the general infrastructure.

Date: 2021-03-18 03:39 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
More horses would probably be easier & more reliable (but not as good at keeping the sparks busy).
Ah, horses with old fashioned flesh legs, yes, but
This would be not as good at keeping them hidden, of course.

Those clank-wagons may serve another purpose: advertisement.

Date: 2021-03-18 06:13 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
Ah, found it: here it is.
There are dense local networks of Paris and Mechanicsburg, but those are definitely not restricted to one medium.
CH apparently controlled Torchmen directly, even while boarding CW.
Also, the staff at Castle Wulfenbach had to maintain contact with units beyond visual range. Which is necessary to have a mostly-real-time map of their movement.

Date: 2021-03-17 10:48 am (UTC)
madfilkentist: Krosp, from Girl Genius by Phil and Kaja Foglio. (Krosp)
From: [personal profile] madfilkentist
In terms of our map, these forces have just swept through Poland and the Baltic States in a day. That's World War II bad. The "Queen of the Dawn" is undoubtedly behind it. She's evidently a Lucrezia instance and may be Zola. The question now is whether it's urgent enough to push Agatha's expedition out of the way. Probably it isn't; the prospect of inter-dimensional invasion is pretty serious too, and her trip is essential to stopping it.

Date: 2021-03-17 01:11 pm (UTC)
elmegil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] elmegil
I forget, was Albia aware of that threat?

Date: 2021-03-17 11:11 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
Or the other one (Lunevka?). She knows the most dangerous adversaries are in England. And who knows, may be ready to raid her little helper.
Queen of the Dawn expanded her influence without rocking the boat too obviously. Also, Grandmother already warned Zola about how much her life expectancy depends on whether she tries to cross a top tier Spark without sufficient subtlety.

Date: 2021-03-18 06:00 am (UTC)
murgatroyd_666: (Default)
From: [personal profile] murgatroyd_666
One more possibility: New instantiations of The Other. The Geisterdamen carried off the Summoning Engine to parts unknown. Lucrezia had repaired and improved it to be able to install The Other into the brains of a wider range of other women than just a Heterodyne or Mongfish. It's been more than two years since that happened, so the Geisterdamen would have had time to create an entire army of Lucrezias if they had wanted to do that.

Date: 2021-03-18 03:50 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
Lucrezia copy is not very useful without a Sparky brain. Though she may keep some just for reliability and save news now and then.

Either way, the most compelling point for suspecting Lucrezias IMHO is timing.
They would prefer hidden encroachment. Such use of an overt "outside" force is likely only as a counter to the immediate threat. Right now, between the loudly failed attack on Paris and wasp eaters being dropped in "public domain" and made fashionable at the same time, weaselpillars are going to be produced in every lab that can. That's more or less game over.
Of course, this applies both to real Lucrezias and to usurpers.
Edited Date: 2021-03-18 07:53 pm (UTC)

Date: 2021-03-17 11:17 pm (UTC)
spectrum_09: (Default)
From: [personal profile] spectrum_09
Actually, this invasion has covered WAY TOO MUCH ground. Even Desert Storm took several days to reach Bagdad while crossing open desert unopposed. A conquering army needs supplies plus troops to occupy territory.

Oh, in WWII, everyone advanced no faster than Napoleon. Really. Lines of communication and supply must be protected.

Date: 2021-03-18 12:10 am (UTC)
madfilkentist: Krosp, from Girl Genius by Phil and Kaja Foglio. (Krosp)
From: [personal profile] madfilkentist
If they're using slaver wasps, they could be creating more troops as they go.

Date: 2021-03-18 04:15 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
The probably long-running plan to take over quietly with tiny wasp engines was thwarted at Paris.
This won't stop the plan elsewhere. Wasp eaters re-created everywhere would, however.
They're not occupying new territory, just admitting that they already own it. Supply lines may already be set up.
Not "admitting", redirecting attention. But yes, if that's the plan, every controlled area will eagerly surrender and cooperate as best as it can, thus making the advance easy.
Which can help with logistics indeed. Not just supply lines, they may have prepared stockpiles of supplies on the path of the advancing army. Concentrated takeover of non-combatants would help to keep this quiet.
Hmm. So while back then this move probably wasn't intended, now ostensibly "wasting" wasp engines on little towns of interest only to small smuggler rings pays off: the point was to create hidden bases, and those have many uses.

Date: 2021-03-20 02:22 am (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
Again, logistics. "Wasping everyone" would expend their most important resource inefficiently.
Hive engines are high tech product that must be made and transported in absolute secrecy. It's not ammunition that can be rolled by millions using workers with minimum of training on most stages.
Thus they must "make it count". They are at war, with everyone. A valuable resource is used up when the expected result is worth it: neutralize dangerous assets or operations of an adversary, acquire valuable assets for their side, or achieve objective in a greater operation.

As such, using enslavers on random peasants is a waste. Using them to take a big city is worthwhile, because cities are important both for industry and for organized violence. And if takeover remains secret, also give access to people and transport beyond the city itself.
So, taking over an isolated small town as such is a dubious achievement, unless it has strategical value. It would be a stronger move if they were taking over the existing fence/smuggler group, but that apparently wasn't the point. A hidden base in a place good for a smuggler ring can be valuable to move stuff, especially for a faction that has to hide everything. They need hidden supply lines, and have to dilute evidence like increased demand for honey as thin as possible, lest Wulfenbach's OSINT picks it up.
So now that we see why they may want to transport more than just hives, materials to build them, Geister army and supplies for it. This makes Hraggel's Point incident more plot-important.

Date: 2021-03-18 12:39 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
More troops to supply, then.
Also, troops "procured" via enslavers would have two advantages: being absolutely obedient, and already inserted deep into the attacked territories. Otherwise mostly green recruits. The second is more significant for shaping their uses.

Date: 2021-03-18 06:05 am (UTC)
murgatroyd_666: (Default)
From: [personal profile] murgatroyd_666
Oh, in WWII, everyone advanced no faster than Napoleon. Really. Lines of communication and supply must be protected.

I think that applies only if the army is supplied from the rear and intends to return home. But consider army ants ... They're advancing from Point A to Point B without any intention of returning to Point A -- they're conquering new territory, living off the land as they advance, and don't really care that they're leaving destruction and famine in their wake. There are no supply lines to worry about.
Edited Date: 2021-03-18 06:19 am (UTC)

Date: 2021-03-18 10:54 pm (UTC)
turbobeholder: (periscope)
From: [personal profile] turbobeholder
Army ants need only food to go on, and aren't very picky as to what they eat.

An army with horse and cold steel needs food for men and mounts, and some replacement horses, so usually it could forage, the question is how much.

An army with mechanized, infantry and support units (at very least, they need lots of air defense and some anti-armor, and some way to deal with fortifications… and yes, communications)? All this, and spare parts and fuel for vehicles and equipment… and lots of ammunition. And medical supplies.
Hence, «Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics».
Now let's remember just how much fun Sparky Europa can be when standards are concerned. See also: "3/17 occipital left-leaning Heterodyne wrench". So one can't rely on local supplies even for most simple spares. Unless the army is built around dual-purpose products to begin with. Then looting toaster ovens and suchlike would cover some needs, but even that's unreliable.

Local supplies mean some stuff doesn't need to be hauled along, and supply lines are more available for things that cannot be had locally. The problems are reliability and having more than common goods like food and bandages.

Now, the Geisters have hidden bases, which allow (with preparation) supply of good reliability and quantity. But what exactly supplies they can obtain quietly?
Common "revenants" can only help as workforce or cannon fodder (augmented shamblers may be shock troops grade, but would give away the "unholy alliance").
Local military units taken over wholesale can work "as is", but won't mix well on the fly. Best use for them is in operations from their own bases, on their own supply chains. Grabbing them to replace losses and move on is inefficient (if better than nothing).
Local transport and communication networks as such could be merged and benefit from the economy of scale, however.

Date: 2021-03-18 10:15 pm (UTC)
spectrum_09: (Default)
From: [personal profile] spectrum_09
My true point concerns how fantasy works deal with the military and war. Real world military takes time and money - lots of it - to build and train a proper fighting force. Also, the armies generally are far too large for the populations they came from. Ancient Empires could raise big armies by using nearly all healthy males. Losing such a war was catastrophic, as we see from history.
A case in point of a modern army was the United States' entry into WWI. It took one full year from the declaration of war on the Central Powers before American troops actually arrived in sufficient numbers in France to engage in combat campaigns. It took six months to set up the attack on Iraq in the Gulf War and that was just to get a well trained and equipped force into place. FDR ordered the modernization of the U.S military in early 1940. At the time of Pearl Harbor, Four Iowa class battleships were under construction and two more had already been ordered (the last two were never completed). Essex class carriers, Baltimore and Cleveland class cruisers were also in the stocks. The North Dakota (first of four of her class) was at sea trails, to be commissioned shortly. And Operation Sealion did not happen because Hitler's small Navy could not hope to cross the Channel while the Royal Navy and RAF still functioned.
Modern warfare takes a lot of preparation and planning. But fictional works do not require this so they skip it.
I enjoy the series and do try to suspend disbelief just as I did for the nearly TOTALLY inaccurate version of WWI in "Wonder Woman" (loved the movie). Just my two cents.

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